艾登Mirzaee (Fellow.app)00:33

罗布,欢迎来到。

Rob Zuber (CircleCI)04:13

谢谢你邀请我。我很兴奋来到这里。

艾登Mirzaee (Fellow.app)04:14

是的,它是,你知道,我非常兴奋,因为很明显的狂热粉丝圈,你们做的工作,而且你也自信的播客主机提交播客。告诉我们关于

Rob Zuber (CircleCI)04:29

那这是正确的。是的,你知道,这是一个有趣的冒险。我相信你已经经历过很高兴有机会跟很多其他领导人业内人士在这里不同的方式我认为,你知道,人们思考问题和方法我觉得我我回去听事件不是因为我想听到自己而是因为我知道我甚至没有把所有内容。我经常从别人给了我一个很好的学习工具。我们主要侧重于软件交付不出所料,CircleCI但你知道,我们交付软是很多比你手头的工具,对吧?这是我们如何思考?我们如何思考实验?我们如何在随着团队有效的工作,我的意思是,它是这样一个广阔的空间。吨的东西,我只是喜欢谈论。

艾登Mirzaee (Fellow.app)05:13

你知道,对我来说跟另一个播客主机,这将是一个有趣的谈话。我知道。让我们谈谈圆,给一些背景,你有一堆公司成立,你并不陌生,创业生活。你一直在循环一段时间。现在圈子已经大致数量级,有多少人在那里工作,

Rob Zuber (CircleCI)05:36

你大约650。好吧,

艾登Mirzaee (Fellow.app)05:37

所以相当大的数量。你今天那里的首席技术官。让我们从头开始。之前我们谈论所有有趣的首席技术官的东西你和你学到的事情。让我们先从一开始,当你第一次开始管理或领导一个团队,你还记得那些早期的一些错误,一些畏缩值得的,我们可以告诉大家今天怎么样?

Rob Zuber (CircleCI)05:57

是的,我认为作为人类,我们擅长记住畏缩值得时刻,无数。所以我进入科技创业公司,毕业一年的,我一直在工厂工作,完全不同,我们可以谈谈另一个时间。但有些朋友在多伦多创办了一家公司,我们只是谈论关于加拿大,所以我加入他们。我没有背景的CS或任何东西。只是,你知道,他们需要的人,他们知道和信任的人。所以我加入了,开始做有效的质量保证工作。不久,是一个QA团队构建和运行。我们称之为质量工程,因为它感觉好多了。但无论我的意思是,是90年代末。所以非常,你知道,瀑布,我们,我们有真正激动人心的工作试图争夺在最后一刻来弥补丢失的所有时间安排,并按时出来。 And so as I built that team, I mean, I would say at a high level, the things that I really struggled with, were helping people understand why we were doing anything like it really just I had a sense of what we had to do. And just I mean, it was like a giving orders, you know, you go do this, you go do this, and then had to be back in five minutes to make sure that that had gotten done, and that someone was, as opposed to helping people understand goals, what we were trying to achieve, etc. But I think we also talked about being really concrete, like one of the moments that I really remember, and it stuck with me, my whole career was this moment, this is over 20 years ago, 25, whatever details are lacking, but really, like getting really, really frustrated. When someone else asked someone on my team to do something, you know, I had this very, like, I need to be in control of what everybody does sort of thing. And like, I mean, that doesn’t scale at all, certainly, as I’ve learned over the years, but like, immediately reflecting on that. I was already like, that’s not who I want to show up as at work, right? Because being frustrated in general. And second, clearly this other person who was an executive or a founder of that company, or whatever, like they have objectives that they’re trying to meet that are probably in the best interest of the company, like, what am I so worried about? And that sort of like, I think a lot of people go through this in early management days, even in early IC days, like I need to demonstrate my value. And I need to control that and make sure that everyone sees it and have like a good message around it and all this sort of thing. And I think, luckily, that was a pretty early place where I just it was honestly, it was disappointment in myself, right? Like, again, very old. So maybe I wasn’t actually yelling at this person. But I was like, why am I so upset about this like? And I think that was a very early shift in the way that I thought like, how do I participate in the organization and be helpful to our overall goals instead of trying to worry about what is my piece? And how do I own it and demonstrate my value sort of thing. So I would say that was an early one that, you know, I just don’t yell at founders just have a normal conversation. But second of all, when you do when you totally blow up and lose your cool at least like take a moment to go, wow, what was it that got me into that spot? And like, how should I be thinking about this?

艾登Mirzaee (Fellow.app)09:05

这是一个非常有趣的一个。我觉得它潜在的深入,对吧?因为一方面,当然,你知道,人们可以跟人团队中,也许,你知道,问他们的事情。但是我认为像有时在组织中,你也有这种情况,说有人可能跳过你,去你的团队,并试图把事情做好。这是一种我想确实提出了这样的问题。所以你怎么认为呢?是我的意思是,他们想,想,直接去人,有点像跳过水平或者是一些其他的事情发生吗?

Rob Zuber (CircleCI)09:46

我的意思是,老实说,我试着混凝土,但在同一时间,它是如此模糊,所以很久以前,但我想这是100%的诚信,就像我们有一个很重要的东西。我的意思是,在一个小公司,你甚至不知道你的企业和天气,你知道,无论如何,有这么多发生得如此之快。并引入很强层的层次结构和困难的沟通模式没有帮助,对吗?每个人的压力下。你知道,这可能是我们的创始人,信用卡支付工资,因为我们没有,你知道,就像,每个人都在大量的胁迫和出现,如不,我们会坐下来,和我们会喜欢,很具体,过程之类的,只是,这不是正确的时间。我认为什么是重要的,就像,我反思,和大规模的组织,和一切,对我来说,真正重要的是,团队的人,知道自己的优先级,知道很重要。如果有人出来的蓝色说,嘿,我需要你放弃你正在做的一切,这样做,他们应该能够说,这似乎很奇怪。因为我觉得作为一个组织,我们围绕这些重点保持一致。这感觉不是排队,你能给我更多的信息吗?或者我们应该? I mean, if I was the manager in that situation, like, we should probably just check with Rob and let him know, let’s just figure it out. And if there’s a change in priorities, we can have a real conversation about okay, how do we adapt to that? Like, should this one person run off and do this thing? Or do we need to understand better what that is? Like? Really, you know, the key point being that the members of the team, again to the other part of that, knowing why they’re doing what they’re doing, even being able to say, oh, okay, I see what you’re asking for, and the impact on the organization, if we shift our attention, there will be this, are we comfortable with that, because the thing that does happen in these kind of like flyby scenarios, if you want to take the least generous view of it, is now as a team, we feel like we have to deliver what the founder just asked us for, because there’s this massive sort of power gap or whatever. And we feel like we have to deliver what our manager asked us for, right? This is like, is it all, you know, the buck stops at the IC and kind of inverse sense that the work still has to happen? And they don’t necessarily feel in a place to say, I totally hear where you’re coming from? Are we cool with like, delaying this other thing? That was our priority? As we understood it previously? Yes. Here’s the business context, that’s changed. I’m totally comfortable with that. Let’s go do it. Awesome, right. But if it’s the, you know, what I was describing as the other part of my lesson, like, I’m not telling anyone why we’re doing anything, they don’t know that I’ve just said, Do this, do this do this kind of thing. You know, again, my early days, then they don’t have the context to know, oh, we can actually, this is the impact it will have, we can have a discussion about trade offs, like really building people up to be able to have those conversations, I think,

艾登Mirzaee (Fellow.app)12:33

是的,我认为现在就给我。所以我绝对理解你雇佣这些令人难以置信的聪明的人。如果他们看到的是杂乱的任务和项目,他们不一定全面理解任务,发生了什么和更广泛的结果是什么,也许这就是好的。但它会把它们不是一个好地方可以使这些类型的优先级决策。,如果他们不做它,它只是意味着你必须是微观管理。没人喜欢。所以,是的,确保他们理解上所花费的时间背景,我能看到如何增加了大量的价值。

Rob Zuber (CircleCI)13:15

是的,完全正确。我认为这是,我的意思是,当你穿过你的职业,就像你吸取教训,最终你也管理更资深的人在你自己更有能力,你知道的,相当模糊的上下文或,或高水平的角度,使伟大的决定去做什么。所以,你知道,我想一方面,很高兴能够通过你的方式。但是它变得更加重要,你知道,当你到达更高的水平在一个组织。

艾登Mirzaee (Fellow.app)13:47

让我们谈谈上升更高层次的组织,你有独特的机会看到圆的增长。所以你扮演的角色,你知道,首席技术官和首席技术人员有效地在公司,当它非常面向创业,这是面向过程的,今天,现在你在哪里,在你看来,如果你要分解,比如你看到启动不同的阶段,你知道,说当我们在30岁以下的人,然后30到200 ?就像你如何分解的不同阶段?在你的意见吗?

Rob Zuber (CircleCI)14:24

是的。对于上下文,这是14,我认为,当我加入,和我们有三个人在一起通过收购,但无论我的意思是,那就是三个大的背景下,14日不大于650,我们现在。是的,当然。有阶段。他们在每个组织的不同,但在工程等一些关键的事情,你开始作为一个团队,对吧?你甚至有几人了解整个系统,正确的工作。有,你知道一切是如何工作的知识吗?如果出现问题,你知道,任何人都可以修复它。非常轻量级和工作协调。我们三个的。 I always joke that we, you know, there were basically two engineers and one not working on code. And, you know, it was like a Slack message in the morning, Hey, what are you going to do today? I’m thinking about doing this. Okay, cool. I’ll go work on this done, we just coordinated Right? Like, why would we have a JIRA board or whatever, like, I can hold that in my head. And so, you know, one big transition point is we feels too big to be a single team. And what’s right, you know, I would kind of hold on to that single team vibe, as long as you can, maybe you need a light, you know, like a Trello, or a pivotal tracker, something like something simple, where everyone can see what’s happening, because I can’t remember what everyone’s working on. I’d say there’s a lot of Dunbar influence in there. Like everyone talks about 150, as this really important, Dunbar number buddy, you actually describe different levels, where you go from sort of, you’re really close personal relationships to like, up to I can remember be this number of people’s names. And so there’s like, like, trust is a big part in there, right? You know, in that two person scenario, it’s like, I totally trust you to just go do the thing. We’ve been working together nonstop for years. And that might work up to like eight people, you know, kind of the size of a standard team, you could push the boundary because you’re trying to keep it as one team. But at the point that you go from one to two teams, a lot of stuff changes. Right now I have this coordination across teams that just didn’t exist before. And so I think some of our tougher times in like in the growth of the engineering organization at CircleCI, were when it felt like we needed to be team oriented, but we didn’t have enough people to kind of staff really sensible teams. And so we were constantly moving people to oh, wait, no, that’s not quite right, like, move some people over into this team. And maybe if we rename this one, and whatever, I feel like, I’m not really an expert in that murky middle, because I don’t know how much of it we got, right? Like we stumbled through a lot of it, and then got to a point where we could say, oh, like, I guess another point in that growth for us, which is probably skipping a couple stages was a call it divisions. But at the point that we said, we’ll have a platform team, and a product oriented engineering team, right, like these people focus on and we see this and lots of our customers, because it’s kind of who we talk to, these people are focused on the ability of other engineers to do their work effectively, you know, my job in a platform organization is to, you know, build CI and CD or deploy CI NCD to build security tooling and basic shared pieces that folks can use. So they can go do their job, their own job, which is to work or to focus on the customer, right, like our end customer of CircleCI, what are they trying to do? I’m building the use cases for them, that engineers is supporting the use cases for me like I the internal engineering the customer, and that’s a really big transition point in organizations,

艾登Mirzaee (Fellow.app)17:51

大概你的工程组织是多大,当你开始有平台团队吗?

Rob Zuber (CircleCI)17:58

我不,我要叫它100年。伊什。我认为你可以做到。我认为卷喜欢这顶帽子,如果你想叫它存在的更早。对吧?如果你有两个人,别人的思维,嘿,等一下,让我们确保我们做出改变,你知道,他们不知道你不打破我的东西。对吧?像,所以人们想做那项工作,但他们这么做,你知道,在第一种变化,哦,这是真的令人沮丧。我们的账单不工作很好,等等。让我花一天时间修复。 It’s not like I’m the platform person at that point. I just like, this week, I was the one who decided to make this little tweak or whatever. So it gets pulled out and solidified. I’d say at that scale. 100 ish. But you could do it at 50. You could do it at 200. I mean, it depends on your organization, and how people behave and what kind of product you’re building all that stuff. But yeah, I think we’re in that we’re I mean, every one of these boundaries, much like shifting from one team to two teams, as you add larger divisions in the organization, right, basically saying, Okay, now we have a director of platform and a Director of Product Engineering, or whatever VP is like, however, you want to think about that. The higher up that division goes, the more overhead you get in that collaboration. And sometimes that’s great, right? I’m a big fan of Team topologies. And the kind of grammar I guess, that they’ve applied to this. So if you think about platform teams is defined in that model. Right? Low collaboration is the goal, because the interface of the platform is very clear to me, right? I just take these things, and they work for me, I don’t need to go every project doesn’t involve me working with a team. But in the early days, as you don’t really have a built out platform, you just have a concept that you’d love to have one, you actually want a lot of collaboration, because the customer who is the product engineer, if we can call them at the person working on you know, again, the use case for the end user needs stuff now. And the platform team can’t be saying well, we just we have our own priorities. We’re gonna go work on that stuff, right like you want them to be served. As the customer, you have to really orient around that lower kind of overhead of coordination. So I gotta you know, there’s lots of ways that that can play out. But I think that is the big transition, which is the, we need to make our engineers more effective. And part of that will be dedicating people’s time to that task, not just making it a cultural thing, right, like early, it’s like, we value productivity. Therefore, let’s have a CI CD pipeline, you know, let’s build automated tests as part of building software. Like that’s cultural more than its team, honestly, like if you have a team building your automated tests, whatever different story, but at some point, you say, Wow, this is so big, and is its own unique problem space. And therefore, we’re going to carve out a team of specific people who that is their strength. And certainly one of the transitions through all of that growth. You know, when you go from engineers that joined a 10 person startup to being in a 250 person engineering team, which is about where we are now is, you specialize when you’re one of 10 people, you know, every piece of every corner of the system, and you can work on whatever you want, you wake up this morning, and you feel like being a UI engineer, like that’s what you do today.

艾登Mirzaee (Fellow.app)21:11

嗨,每个人,仅仅是一个简短的说明,在我们回到面试之前,如果你听这个播客,你可能一直在寻找办法更好地管理团队的艺术。包括管理团队的预算,鉴于目前的经济形势,这是非常重要的经理理解金融预测,以及它如何影响他们的组织。而且,总的来说,我认为这只是对每个人都很好,有很好的感觉什么是资产负债表,损益表是什么样子什么是现金流量表,并真正融入到金融和它如何影响你的团队,以及如何让非常擅长预测。好消息是我们的朋友在早晨酿造一个我最喜欢的通讯,它们经营的一门课程,它叫做财务预测。一系列精心策划的经验,它提供了领导人的基本工具将糊状的战略物质转化为可量化的指标,基本上从一个空白的表格到预测性能和定义财务成功实际上意味着什么为你的团队,你的部门,或你的业务。和最好的部分是所有Supermanagers播客听众获得50美元,当你注册通过URL。现在,我们将离开在显示notes URL。但它的教育,早上点,brew.com/fellow,你听说对的,就去教育、点早上brew.com/fellow 50美元从你的当然成员。这样说,让我们回到面试。你也喜欢从招聘的角度来看,你试着雇佣多面手,对吧? When you’re 10 people,

Rob Zuber (CircleCI)22:59

完全可能在高级结束,因为他们要面对很多未知的事情。他们要有一个工具箱,让他们去适应。但你知道,所有高级工程师250人没有工作,对吧?有很多,比如,我怎么在这个组织成长,当其他人也有同样的技能,给我的吗?喜欢,哪里是我的位置和成为一个领导者?是的,当你进入更大的组织中,你可能会说,好吧,我需要自己的一块,而不是整个事情。否则,我们不可能都只是在一切。正确的。这是真正的工程师。这是真的的高管,你知道,就像,有一段时间的管理团队是由我和CEO。 That is not the case anymore, right? Like, there’s huge things that I don’t participate in at all that I used to spend a lot of time on, which is great. I mean, it’s nice to be able to bring in really experienced skilled people in particular areas. But I think it’s a that’s more of an evolution than a particular phase. But it’s something that you when you hire someone to run sales, that’s a really big transition in a startup, right? Where’s this? Like? We’re, obviously developer tools, developers selling to developers, right? Sounds great at the beginning. But it turns out that you, we don’t have the skills to go negotiate contracts and work with procurement teams, and whatever, like there’s real real capability there, right? And we don’t necessarily understand every customer. So now we have product management, like all of these things get layered on and each one changes the way the company functions. But ideally, for the better, right as as you’re growing through that. You could say, Okay, what do we want marketing to be here at this organization? Like, what’s the right approach to marketing for who we are? What’s the right approach to sales for who we are, and then we go find a leader who shares that vision, and then get out of their way help them understand our space, but let them build.

艾登Mirzaee (Fellow.app)24:48

是的,所以我想一个非常小的问题,这是甜点产品或卷起成USPTO吗?体育彩票BOB或者是一个单独的

Rob Zuber (CircleCI)24:56

还是清晰?几乎没有人卷到我他了,我建工程组织约250。然后我雇了一个工程的高级副总裁。所以说到专业,我在250年走出管理。因为有足够的我做不运行一个工程团队,我们的产品组织一直独立卷起。体育彩票BOB你知道,我傻笑,我猜人们看不到,因为它是一个喜欢,经典,常绿科技公司的问题。这完全是可行的。无论哪种方式,它只是以不同的方式工作。和我,吉姆,他是我们的首席执行官,和我们以前公司的联合创始人。吉姆是一个产品的人体育彩票BOB的背景。 And I think of myself as a technology person by background, I love product, I love thinking about customers, I love all of those things. But because we have such a great relationship, I also love having a partner to think about these really complex problems of how do we take engineering investment and use it to deliver great value to our customers. And I wouldn’t necessarily want to just own that on my own. Like, I love having a partner in that. And so that’s how we’ve always thought about it in our organization.

艾登Mirzaee (Fellow.app)26:10

这是有意义的。所以我必须问你,那么这是一个有趣的话题。所以从首席技术官的角色,也许你可以在你自己的语言描述,听起来像有两个阶段。我的意思是,有很多阶段,但我要把它分成两个,要么带来的阶段之前工程的高级副总裁,和现在已经有人在,所以把一个在前,你会如何形容你的每天或角色你会说这样的目标和你关心的东西,你优先考虑的首席技术官吗?你会如何描述?

Rob Zuber (CircleCI)26:45

是的,我的意思是,这种转变很突然。对吧?所以当你正在运行一个组织,无论当我加入,我也许10,14,或者类似的东西在去年,当我第一次加入,我只是写代码,但不久我管理工程组织。所以你的目标是有效的交付。对吧?我们有一个过程吗?我们有能力把事情做好吗?我们有正确的技术基础,以支持我们吗?做我的人对吗?我把正确的人在最初的那些日子里,你的意识到你正在谈论高级像我这样的人依靠他们来表我所需要的技能。 Later, I’m thinking about building bench growing people like do I have the processes internally to help people develop in their own careers to get from where they are to a have their own development in a way that makes them want to be here because they feel that they enjoy that and be become greater and greater contributors to the organization? Right, like, modeling out over multiple years? How do people arrive here? How do they leave here? How do they contribute along the way? How do we build them? All of that stuff? Is stuff that you think about when you run an organization like that? And how do we coordinate with product? How do we make sure we’re focused on the right things? You know, all of that is probably front and center, like that’s the top and then shifting out of that. For me, personally, I kind of split my work between two, I’ll call them two buckets. Again, there’s many but well, like for simplicity. One is really strategic. Right? We’re a company building tools for software engineers. So as a person who’s been in the software engineering industry for 25 years, like, what can I read from signal out there about what people are doing and how they’re thinking about it, that allows us to understand how we evolve as an organization to continue to deliver great products that allow them to do what they need to do in what is a very rapidly changing space, like how we think about delivering software changes, hourly, this community just loves to do things differently today than they did them yesterday. So what of that is noise, and just people goofing off? And what of that is like a real signal that something matters, and is going to fundamentally change our industry? So how do we take all that and then think about the next many years? So it’s like, I always joke that my time horizons are 10 years and 10 minutes, like the other thing is what is totally on fire right now, that needs, I guess, executive perspective, right? Like one team doesn’t have the ability to solve this, but we can’t just drop it on one person’s plate. And they’re like, oh, yeah, I own this, like the big cross cutting problems, where, you know, my understanding of the organization of what we build, have every I mean, across all departments, not just engineering allows me to navigate those problems quickly and say, a yes, this is really important to the business or b It’s not let’s stop stressing about it. And if it’s the former, here’s what we need to do to get ourselves back on track. So it’s like a weird combination of really far out and sort of helping with those really immediate problems that are, you know, tough to put in just a single bucket if that makes sense.

艾登Mirzaee (Fellow.app)29:59

人,但我真的很喜欢你,你知道的,我的时间范围是10分钟或十年,我可以肯定与认同。你如何做时间的战略,尤其喜欢把之前的高级吗?你很难做吗?或者你能抽出时间吗?你在战术上做些什么来确保它发生,

Rob Zuber (CircleCI)30:23

我想说这是一个重要因素在选择走高级路线我挣扎,我已经尝试并计划开拓。当你自己的很多操作元素,很难打破,我认为人们解决问题的不同,正确的,以不同结构下,等等。但是我的终极目标是让完全的升级路径,这样的高级报告我们的CEO。所以它不像它穿过我。只是,这不是我,我现在可以真正保护我大量的时间。我非常喜欢这本书的,所有商业书籍可能是一个博客,但它叫做的一件事,和他们喜欢的一个模型,而是优先考虑最重要的事情。在某种程度上,当他们讨论,他们表达,您应该能够看看你的日历和说,50%的时间,正在致力于你认为最重要的是,你可以工作。你知道,你说任何高管,他们就像,是啊,没错。但我现在在的位置,我可以这样做,对吗?我只能说,这是最重要的业务。 That is something that I am in a unique position to solve. Like, there’s lots of things that are important that shouldn’t go to me, but I can truly carve out time to go think about those things. And yes, like, what’s one of the transitions that I’ve gone through that’s been really hard is I put all of this energy into getting to this place where I have that kind of space on my calendar. And then when people ask if they can have 30 minutes of my time, I look at my calendar, I’m like, oh, yeah, I have tons of time, of course. And then I look back on it at the end of the week, and think,

艾登Mirzaee (Fellow.app)31:53

哦,我甚至没有填补这个日历。

Rob Zuber (CircleCI)31:55

我做的是什么?,重点是,你知道,非常活跃的像块,不是因为人们只是把东西放在我的日历,但把块说这个时间你雕刻出来,像明智地使用它。你知道,你的东西在哪里,这很重要,就像得到这些东西。我认为很难让你的头,再一次,在增长,像公司的增长和增长作为一名经理。但是意识到有人看到大局。很少人能因为他们每天在操作消防,然后他们喘口气,一年过去了,错过了很多机会。所以承认,像真的,不只是对自己承认,但在与人交谈,说,看,我雕刻出这个时间,因为我把这个责任看到大局。然后,你知道,沟通,因此这里有一些结果,这就是我们思考。这种方向的变化,我们正在做什么,,嘿,每个人我此时覆盖,但没有人知道你在做什么也是一个问题。

艾登Mirzaee (Fellow.app)32:55

我真的很喜欢这个。和它是如此困难。这不是一个全面解决方案,任何人都可以去申请。因为每个人都是不同的。每个组织都是不同的。但在过去的一年里,例如,我聘请了一位参谋长,我可以与您说,这是消防操作的一切,很多事情需要做,但是他们从来没有紧迫和重要。他们是重要的。如果你想花更多的时间在这个重要的领域,有时不同的结构像,一定能有所帮助。但有一件事我知道你认为是非常重要的,我想让你承担。我们听到从你的一个前直接报告,麦琪,是圆的工程总监,她说,尽管她向你汇报,她从来没有遇到任何人,一对一那么严重。 And she really appreciated and enjoyed the one on ones that she had with you. So I wanted to ask you, what do you do with your one on ones? And why was Maggie so impressed with the way that you ran them?

Rob Zuber (CircleCI)34:02

我的意思是,不迂腐,但我认为这是很重要的。她在为我工作的人。这是我记得,因为她她对我说,这在某种程度上,像一个跳过。她很惊讶,我想我会出现,但我想,我很困惑,这是,你知道,很有趣。我认为这只是框架的心态。我想,你知道,有两个部分。为什么我显示?我不知道,也许很多人喜欢开玩笑说,加拿大人很好,但它不是友善。想,有这么多的价值获得的谈话。我认为像我们讨论过的增长,,,当然,我已经在许多初创公司,管理团队,等等。 But this is a very large organization compared to most of the orgs that I’ve built in the past, etcetera. So you end up at this place where you’re trying to communicate effectively, and have that percolate down through an organization. And one of the best ways to test whether that’s working is to go talk to people who are multiple layers down and get the feedback of what they’re hearing and And it’s difficult many levels down because there’s, you know, power dynamics and trust issues and all the other stuff that comes up not because you’re not trustworthy, but people just don’t know you enough to be truly honest, right. But if you can build that relationship, if you want to build trust, like show up on time, and you know, be there for the calls, or whatever, right, number one, then you’re gonna get real feedback about what’s happening in the organization that’s a little bit outside of your view that’s typically presented, right. So as an executive, it’s often roll up, right? These people said, all these really interesting things that then got summarized by these people that they got summarized by these people, by the time it gets to you, it’s like, this is what others have decided, you think is important, right? And often framed in in a way that’s their bias, or, you know, maybe they’re trying to make it look a little different. Maybe they don’t see things the way that you do, you know, as many different reasons that it gets, we all play broken telephone as children, right? Like, what comes back to you is not necessarily what we said at the beginning. And so, you know, talking to people about a just like you asked about structure in those communities, it’s typically from another book, I start with the question, what’s on your mind, right? Like, what matters to you right now? is really the purpose of that question. And that tells you a lot, right? Just ask someone like, and what’s on their mind might have nothing to do with what’s on your mind. And that’s interesting, like, why is an organization are we not worried about the same thing, if we’re all worried about very, very different things, then something is off, right? Like, we’re not driving towards the same goal, or there’s details at your level, that are not percolating up to my level and keeping you from even creating the space to drive towards the goal that I’m talking about, right? Like, hey, we’re all gonna go do this thing. This is our mission and our vision. And you know, I keep saying you, but like, an engineering manager is like, that sounds fine. But like, I can’t even get my hires done. How am I supposed to pursue the goals of the company when I don’t have anybody on my team sort of thing? Or like, you know, these and you think, Oh, well, that must be infinitely solvable, right into, like, do I want all of that to escalate up to an exec? No, it’s not like, I’m gonna go solve all those problems. But I think the last thing I would say on that is, is I’m looking for patterns, right? If I go talk to three people in the organization, and they all raise the same issue that I’m not thinking about, then there’s a problem that I’m not paying attention to, that may have a more systematic solution, right? All those managers are, are off trying to solve the problem for themselves. When, you know, at a higher level, you could say, oh, actually, I’m seeing this problem across the organization. And my guess is, it’s this conversation that I had last week that landed poorly, right, when it was communicated out through the org, people didn’t hear the intent. They kind of projected something onto it, or whatever no fault of their own, like, context is hard. That’s something I can go fix. Yeah, cuz I’m gonna fix like the high level point.

艾登Mirzaee (Fellow.app)37:50

你问同样的问题,你开始与你在想什么?然后看到。有时候如果有喜欢,最近的事情,也许你沟通,关于这些你可能会问。就像你在玩侦探?一旦你这样做,又有多少时间,非常战术,但大公司吗?你花多少时间在跳过水平?而且,你知道,你做什么工作?你决定在本周初,你会遇见谁?或者你有一个节奏,我会每月多少?

Rob Zuber (CircleCI)38:22

好问题。再一次,这已经在近代史上一点。对我来说,我更倾向于针对那些类型的对话我们更多的高级工程师,像ICs。但你知道,我们就像员工工程师,之类的。现在,同样的目标,我想更多的系统性的技术问题,或流程问题,管理问题多,我很容易与这些人说30分钟的会议,每月一次,或者一次季度之类的,不是特别有用。我认为有趣的事情,我做的这是我花时间与我的EA,这不是每个人都听谁会有一个EA,但如果他们高层领导人,可能很多人做,我们走过的地方,像历史数据从我的日历和说,时间在哪里?对吧?嘿,你现在花23%的时间在一个的,你知道,在这个类别?这感觉对吗?是,你现在想做什么? Feels like it should maybe be 10%? Because that stuff is kind of, you know, on cruise control, and I need to dedicate more time to this project. Great. How would we adjust that? Okay, then we would say, Well, now it’s every two weeks, probably every four is fine, because this is more like a maintenance thing, right? And a little bit also just got, I’ve had a one on one with this person every week. And we’ve literally had nothing interesting to talk about. Okay, neither of us are getting great value out of that. Either. We should figure out something more useful and valuable to focus on or we can, you know, put that on a little bit of maintenance right now and target in another area. But I think that the thing that’s really worked well for me, is that reflective like, you know, data, we all love data. That’s a really interesting piece of data like where is my time going? Is it divided up according to what my priorities are?

艾登Mirzaee (Fellow.app)39:58

明白了。所以有一件事我想问你关于仅仅因为你经历了这么多的增长在圆,这是,你知道,越来越多的人雇用像第一个2030人,你知道,它们是不同的。我们谈论他们是如何更专业。但其中一个问题是,你知道,如何保持这些人喜欢早起的人有太多的接触,你知道,有这么多的知识?在那里,看到那些东西?你怎么让他们保持积极性和长期呆在公司吗?你发现你所做的事情,有工作吗?

Rob Zuber (CircleCI)40:33

是的,没有银弹,对吧?将每个问题的答案。但与此同时,还有是否对每个人都是正确的。对吧?如果我爱早期创业公司,我帮这个组织通过其首先,你知道,我要选四年,因为我花了很多时间思考特别保护权时间表和其他随机的东西。但是我喜欢,让我们一个地方,我让我们的地方现在我就是科技领导在一个特定的团队。我不断失望,因为某某那边是我建系统上工作,他们不这样做,,,我可能只是在一个地方,它不会是有趣的对于我来说,无论我如何看待它。我们有整个频谱,我想说,我们的人已经离开很久以前,我们的人一直在这儿的时间比我长,对吧?所以很大一部分是诚实的谈话,,是什么激励着你发生了什么,这将是对你有意思,你想如何发展自己的事业,喜欢,我在这里八年,我们有这样的时间表,这是很长一段时间。喜欢,如果你在一个公司要花八年,你不想出来另一边说,是的,我建造。 Because you could have said that three years ago, after three or whatever, like, what are the things you want to personally develop? How do you want to set yourself up for the rest of your career after this, right? Because now I’m a firm believer that if you’re a big part, long tenure at a successful company like ours, you’ll have opportunity, right? But you’ll want to bring skills to that opportunity as well, you want to be like, I think a lot of early engineers end up being like directors, because they were just there early, not because they’re cut out to be directors, right? In the early days, they can dabble as a team leader and manager and say, You know what, I don’t like this work. I just like being really good at the technical stuff. Okay, awesome. Like, and we have now, you know, a we have legacy systems like everybody does, it’s been around as long as so that’s interesting. But you don’t want to end up being the person that everyone goes to to solve the legacy system problem. That’s a real problem. And it’s an art, you can’t fix it with that person, you have to fix it with everybody else. Right? How do we build an organization that’s now capable of dealing with this? So I can create space for this person to go do? What will be interesting and valuable to them and valuable to the company? Right? Like, okay, you get to go do research projects, because we’re not really sure what else to do with you. I don’t know that anyone’s going to benefit from that. But hey, we have this really interesting, hard technical challenge that we’re going to try to pursue, that’s going to move the product forward. Would you be interested in solving that? Or, you know, we’ve done a couple acquisitions? Are you interested in like helping this team really understand how our stuff works, so they can integrate and define this vision of this product? You know, as we move forward, is, it’s not really a different management problem. I think it’s like, what are people good at? What do they want to do? And can I align them up with that? I think it comes with this unique sort of challenge that we have of almost feeling like you owe that person like they’ve been here a really long time, they’ve contributed a lot, therefore, I owe it to them, to have them continuing to work on whatever versus you know, at some point in any conversation, and this isn’t true of everybody. But you know, it’s we’re saying, it’s worth identifying there’s not a good fit for you here. How can I help you go be successful out in the world, like, you know, we’ve had people leave and go become CTOs of other startups, I think that’s great for them, right. And I don’t feel like CircleCI is less afford. I’m proud of that. Like, we built some amazing engineers, we gave them awesome opportunities, they learned things. And they went off and did different great things. And some have stayed and love the work that they do. Like, I think we end up in this weird dead end, where we’re like, well, we have to keep that person because they’ve been here a really long time versus that person has been here a really long time they have this value, how can we give them a place to grow? And you know, have them deliver that value to us?

艾登Mirzaee (Fellow.app)44:14

至少框架,和你是对的,这是非常个人主义和消费时间真正了解这个人的目标是一定会指导人们应该做什么。我们越来越接近。我最后一个问题我想通常是所有管理者和领导者不断寻求获得更好的工艺。离别是什么至理名言,你想离开他们?但这一次我可能种子这个问题一点说,世界上的智慧的言语,我知道在我们开始谈话之前你有提到你想很多关于你知道如何感觉优雅和学习。所以我想知道你的临别赠言的智慧,如果你有任何你想分享失败

Rob Zuber (CircleCI)45:03

集会听第二季的竞争也许涵盖了这么多,但我不能涵盖一切。我认为最有趣的一件事一直在我谈话,在思考与失败这个词我很舒服,因为我不要把很多的重量,我谈了很多,我们试图做一些没有去那么我们的预期,就像,我希望事情不会去我们预期的方式。我不知道他们会去。这不是放诸四海而皆准。很多人不管出于什么原因,最后他们在公司,做了非常不同的处理,或者,喜欢不同文化讨论这样的词不同。和许多其他原因。我认为框架问题,框架工作围绕被假说驱动的运行实验在说,我们要尝试。结果我们寻找新信息。好吧,我们将发布一个产品,我们会学习如果这样的人的产品,这种产品我体育彩票BOB们不航运,因为我们100%相信我们是对的。吉姆和CEO,就像我们使用类似的表达式,我们将是错误的。 We just don’t know what we’re wrong about or how wrong we are. And so what we’re trying to do is learn right now, what is the fastest way that we can learn? And when I think I’m learning, then I’ve succeeded. I’ve succeeded at learning, even if I didn’t move the number up into the right in terms of, you know, signups. Right, it’s like, I now have new information about what doesn’t drive signups. So I’ve closed off a space of exploration, I closed it off quickly, hopefully. And now I can go investigate a smaller space and look for the thing that does matter to people. Right. And I think how we talk about, particularly failure, but turning that around into learning, really gives you an opportunity to open up discussion in an organization around things that have you know, they’re uncomfortable, and we talk a lot about psychological safety, etc. And yes, there are things that literally are failures. Sure. But we call so many things failure that I think we closed down avenues of learning, instead of really opening them up, and I guess I’ll leave somehow, my now 13 year old, he’s my younger son loves the expression, the only failure is failure to learn. I think I said it to him jokingly at some point and then like, you know, he’ll be playing us in a soccer match on the weekend or something. And I’m like, how did it go? You know, what did you think? And he’s like, Well, I’m really not happy about this. But now I’ve learned something, you know, the only failure is failure to learn, like, this is what I’m gonna do differently next time, but just kind of building up that mentality. Kids are like, sadly, a great testing ground for some of my theories. But I think if you could shift the conversation into, we’re trying to learn, everything we’re doing is teaching us something and that’s a positive, then you end up in a much better place in terms of how you, you know, how you experiment and how you move.

艾登Mirzaee (Fellow.app)47:48

那太好了。伟大的建议。抢劫。这是一个伟大的谈话。非常感谢这么做。

Rob Zuber (CircleCI)47:54

是的。谢谢你邀请我的无穷乐趣。